Magic
All modern Americans are taught not to believe in magic. Our magicians are entertainers who do fake magic. We are told that believing in real magic is primitive superstition, and we are mucher smarter than that now.
But actually, magic is religion and religion is magic. It is that way now, and it always was.
What magic mostly involves, as far as I know, is trying to influence the world with words — magic spells and incantations. And liquids — magic potions. And animal sacrifices, usually involving blood.
Ok, well just look at our most popular American religion — Christianity. Praying is trying to influence the world by using words, just like magic spells. Jesus was the ultimate blood sacrifice, for Christians. The ancient Israelites performed blood sacrifices (animals, not human, but human sacrifice has been very popular in other ancient religions).
And the Catholics have Holy Water, their magic potion.
Am I trying to say that modern religions are bogus because they are really just magic? No, I am trying to say that magic is real.
I don’t want to make this a long post. But I want to say that, in alternative science, the idea of words and liguids having power is not ridiculous at all.
As just one example (there are many, and alternative science has a long history): One of the scientists who discovered the HIV virus, Montagnier, now does research on the memory of water: http://iopscience.iop.org/1742-6596/306/1/012007.
Montagnier is a “real” scientist, not one of the fringey alternative scientists.
I have a lot more to say about this.
Modern science and modern religion have both renounced magic. But magic is real, and real scientists are beginning to figure that out.
Ambiance 
chickelit said,
January 5, 2013 at 2:43 pm
Any oscillating charge will generate EM radiation – this is how radio signals are generated; likewise, EM radiation will resonate with matter having a dipole if the frequency fits. This is how molecules vibrate and wiggle, aside from random collisions.
I’d have to read the whole paper to see what’s new here.
realpc920 said,
January 5, 2013 at 3:30 pm
http://www.i-sis.org.uk/DNA_sequence_reconstituted_from_Water_Memory.php
I don’t want to get too lost in the details. The point is that Montagnier is doing research on the memory of water. And mainstream science will eventually have to stop calling the idea crazy.
Memory of water is the basis of homeopathy, which mainstream medicine insists is magical nonsense.
Ok, it is magical, but does that mean it’s nonsense? No.
I am not a physicist and I am not trying to get into the tiny details of this kind of research. The overall message is that water can carry information. Maybe that sounds like no big deal, but it is a very very big deal. It could start to make altnerative science and medicine respectable. And it opens the back door for magic to start creeping in.
That is scary for materialists.
chickelit said,
January 5, 2013 at 3:53 pm
I once tried to show how magic indirectly inspired real science back here: link
realpc920 said,
January 5, 2013 at 4:41 pm
All of us learned that modern science evolved out of ancient “superstitions” like astrology and alchemy. We also learned that modern science is “right” and the ancient beliefs were wrong.
I know what we all know. I am trying to say that what we all know is partly wrong.
chickelit said,
January 5, 2013 at 5:12 pm
I know what we all know. I am trying to say that what we all know is partly wrong.
To use one half of your example, if you put Luc Montagnier and Peter Duesberg in a room and asked them to talk about HIV and listened in, they’d prove your point. The better question is willful right and wrong.
I see science zig-zagging like a self-correcting guided missile — like what Norbert Wiener deveolped with his cybernetics. It’s always headed in a “wrong” direction, awaiting the latest correction.
realpc920 said,
January 5, 2013 at 5:38 pm
It doesn’t really work that way. It can go way off course. If a majority of scientists start to believe something, however ridiculous it might be, the rest will start to go along. The mainstream consensus is respected — how could so many experts all be wrong? Well they can be.
Once a consensus has formed, a scientist’s career can be destroyed if they oppose the consensus. Duesberg is one example.
I definitely think Duesberg is partly right — HIV is not the cause of AIDS. It might be associated with AIDS in some way, but not as a cause.
Montagnier’s water memory research is relevant to AIDS, I believe. I don’t think it’s caused by a virus, I think that somehow the blood’s information becomes damaged. I won’t try to speculate exaclty how, but many different things have led me to this idea.
And the fact that Montagnier can actually get away with doing research that has always been alternative an marginalized, is a sign that the consensus may have to re-evaluate.
But the mainstream will fight hard because it does not want magic creeping into science.
chickelit said,
January 5, 2013 at 6:15 pm
I think we agree in style if not substance:
chickenlittle said…
Nobelist Steven Chu, head of the DOE and Obama’s top science guru, is all on board the CO2 is evil train. Link.
There is clearly an enormous investment in brainpower behind the notion that CO2 causes warming.
Here is how I distill the problem(s) confronting us:
1) How, if incorrect about CO2, could the scientific consensus be so wrong?
(a) Is the notion CO2 causes warming now too big to fail?
(b) Can the credibility of American (and world) science recover if wrong?
2) If they are right about CO2 causing warming, what would it take to convince the American people that they are correct?
(a) Clearly something has gone wrong with the PR-people are not convinced.
(b) The present administration appears to say: fuck ’em- they (the people) don’t believe us? we’re gonna force them. The possible tachniques available to enforce compliance are downright un-American.
3) What really bothers me as a sceptic of the CO2 causes warming is that if the Copenhagen treaty is ratified and enforced, and warming does not occur, credit will be taken regardless of the true cause. To me this is a heads I win tails you lose proposition for the CO2 causes warming folks. But more insidiously, it is the exact mechanism by which Science could ascend to the status of a quasi-religion: give the people “miracle, mystery and authority” and they will follow.
Sorry in advance for the longish post.
_______________________
link
realpc920 said,
January 5, 2013 at 7:47 pm
chickelit,
That is the sort of thing I am talking about. A mainstream scientific theory can become too big to fail — if they admit they were wrong, they will look stupid.
The same kind of thing happens sometimes with crime investigations. They get the wrong guy, but refuse to even consider the possibility that he might be innocent.
Once you go far enough with and idea, it can be hard to reverse course. What has happened with AIDS is mind-boggling and horrendous. I spent a lot of time trying to figure it out, and what I found was appalling.
Whenever something is ambiguous and complicated, people get very confused. Understandably, of course. But when people are confused, they can be deceived. I think it is possible that most AIDS researchers honestly believe HIV causes AIDS, and that the AIDS drugs are beneficial. Even though there is NO evidence for those beliefs!
It’s like when the cops think they found the dangerous killer and locked him up. Even if it turns out the evidence was wrong or inadequate, sometimes they refuse to re-open the case.
That’s what happened with HIV and AIDS. People desperately wanted an answer to the mystery killer, and scientists seemed to have found it, and a cure. Everyone immediately jumped on that bandwagon, and now it would be really hard to get off it.
And the extremely powerful and influential drug companies are making a fortune, all over the world. They control a lot of the medical research now, so anyone with doubts about the drugs won’t get funding. Duesberg was ridiculed and his reputation destroyed — all because he had doubts about their simple solution.
I don’t agree with Duesberg that AIDS is caused by the gay lifestyle. Maybe sometimes, but I don’t think that really explains it. I think the research Montagnier is doing now might eventually explain it.
wj said,
January 5, 2013 at 9:13 pm
Sceince exhibits what might be characterized as semi-punctuated evolution. That is, there will be on-going development for a while. Then a concensus will form on something. It will be elaborated, but not challenged, for a while. (Sometimes a long while.) But eventually evidence which doesn’t fit the theory becomes difficult to ignore . . . and we have a big shift, and get back to development again.
One of my favorite examples is from geology. For a long time, only a crazy man would suggests that the continents moved. But eventually, the evidence got to the point where continental drift moved rather abruptly from the “crazy theory” category to the “generally accepted understanding” category.
One of the places where scientific concensus can get broken is engineering. Engineers use science to accomplish things. But they are also fairly open to using something that science doesn’t explain or understand or accept — as long as it works reliably. A scientist will tell you that dowsing is nonsense. But an engineer working for a utility company will routinely use dowsing rods to find underground pipes when records have gotten lost. (A further wrinkle: the gas company engineers find gas lines, but not telephone cables. The telephone guys find their cables, but not sewer pipes. With apparently identical equipment, the results apparently depend on what you are looking for.)
karen said,
January 5, 2013 at 9:18 pm
FWIW- i’m reading a book right now by Scott Hahn called ~Swear to God~ about Covenants and Sacraments and Oaths. It’s ritualistic, obviously- but the reasoning of a Covenant and magic are different, IMhumbleO.
It’s ok w/me if you want to think of my Faith as hocuspocus(honeylocust in sp ck). I don’t see it that way, but i also don’t think of homeopathy as magic or bunk, either.
One is medicine for the body, the other for the soul.
I also was taught that there is a lag time, a reaction differential- if you will- in the cause/effect of the enviroment. Erosion may happen at a certain time and place due to how it was used 75 yrs ago, say. I feel that way about our weather patterns. How is it possible to desimate(i thought it was a word- ok, then)… destroy… however many 1000s of acres of Rainforest and not think that the effect would be disastrous to the health of our world. When an area so large is damaged w/nothing to take it’s place or continue it’s job(lungs of the World)- what will happen?
Duh- nothing good, but the hell w/all of that- let’s clear cut it off, plow it’s shallow, thin soil under and farm!!!
Stupid is as stupid does.
I’m in a mood, eh?
It all went well today, regardless.
realpc920 said,
January 5, 2013 at 9:35 pm
karen,
It seems like you got the opposite of what I was trying to say. Because I used the word “magic,” which is considered nonsense by our society, you thought I meant I think religion is nonsense.
Ok — turn that around to exactly the opposite, and that is what I meant.
I am saying that magic is NOT nonsense. We are brainwashed by our society to believe that we have progressed beyond superstition.
No, we have not progressed beyond magic, and magic is not mere superstition.
Magic is the essence of all religions, it always was. The bible (Old, New or both, I forget) forbids sorcery. Maybe because sorcery can be dangerous and damaging.
The idea of destructive witchcraft is understandably terrifying. Now we use the word “witchhunt” to mean unwarranted persecution of innocent people. In other words, our brainwashing tells us that witchcraft is harmless and ineffective.
The practice of witchcraft — or sorcery, or shamanism — is as old as our species. If not older. Life is challenging enough without having to worry if your neighbor is casting bad spells on you and your family.
So we made life “easier” by using our old friend Denial. Ghosts and spirits are just hallucinations, magic is all fake, etc.
Maybe it’s still ok to say that God is real. But even that is dying out. I mean, God is a non-physical being, and therefore a kind of spirit. So of God is real, then other spirits and demons could be real.
So it’s safer to just deny spirits altogether.
Let’s be safe, let’s go into complete denial about the spiritual realms. That’s where our society is heading.
Not everyone, of course, there are dissenters. But the trend is increasingly towards materialism and self-worship and denial. I guess that has been the trend for thousands of years.
karen said,
January 5, 2013 at 9:42 pm
ok, real. It’s maybe- just- i don’t believe in magic.
Just because i can’t explain something doesn’t mean it is magic.
I’m probably misunderstanding again, but- magic is… magic.
Magic is not real. It happens for a reason, caused by someone or something.
If something can be explained, it isn’t really magic, is it? There was a hidden way something called magic was accomplished and someone is in the know.
I’m confusing myself, now:0).
Phenomenon. Now THAT’S a word.
Miracle, as well.
realpc920 said,
January 5, 2013 at 9:50 pm
If you don’t believe in magic, then you don’t believe in prayer. If you are Christian, then supposedly you believe in the magic if Christ’s blood. And in holy water.
Maybe you just have a problem with the word “magic?” It has a bad connotation in our culture. We think of magicians as entertainers doing fake tricks.
Try to get past how we use the word “magic” now, and think about its real meaning. As I described in the post.
karen said,
January 6, 2013 at 10:35 pm
“If you don’t believe in magic, then you don’t believe in prayer. If you are Christian, then supposedly you believe in the magic if Christ’s blood. And in holy water.”
I don’t believe in these things because of their ~magic~.
I believe in these things because of my Faith.
World English Dictionary
A)faith -n
1. strong or unshakeable belief in something, esp without proof or evidence.
4. a conviction of the truth of certain doctrines of religion, esp when this is not based on reason.
mid-13c., “duty of fulfilling one’s trust,” from O.Fr. feid, from L. fides “trust, belief,” from root of fidere “to trust,” For sense evolution, see belief.
B)mag·ic -n
1. The art that purports to control or forecast natural events, effects, or forces by invoking the supernatural.
2.
a. The practice of using charms, spells, or rituals to attempt to produce supernatural effects or control events in nature.
b. The charms, spells, and rituals so used.
3. The exercise of sleight of hand or conjuring for entertainment.
adj.
1. Of, relating to, or invoking the supernatural.
2. Possessing distinctive qualities that produce unaccountable or baffling effects.
C)pray
late 13c., “ask earnestly, beg,” also “pray to a god or saint,” from O.Fr. preier (c.900), from L. precari “ask earnestly, beg,” from *prex (plural preces, gen. precis) “prayer, request, entreaty,” from PIE base *prek- “to ask, request, entreat” (cf. Skt. prasna-, Avestan frashna- “question;” O.C.S.
prositi, Lith. prasyti “to ask, beg;” O.H.G. frahen, Ger. fragen, O.E. fricgan “to ask” a question).
Magic: i do not think it means what you think it means:0).
ps- sorry so long a comment:0(.
realpc920 said,
January 7, 2013 at 8:14 am
You can’t see the underlying similarities. Just looking at the surface.
karen said,
January 7, 2013 at 9:18 am
I can, though.
I don’t really agree.
It’s all about the mystery.
One asks and waits.
One demands.
I think magic is all surface.
i concede- there are similarities.
If one must look.
realpc920 said,
January 7, 2013 at 7:19 pm
You need to separate religion and magic, karen, because you have been taught that religion is good and magic is bad.
But magic is the basis of all the modern religions.
Do you feel your religion is superior to the beliefs of native Americans, for example? They practice (or used to, before most of them became modernized), the same kind of magical shamanism that has been practiced by “primitive” tribes in all times and places, as far as we know.
I don’t see anything inferior about the beliefs of native Americans, or tribal people that lived on other continents.
Yes you have faith, but so much of your faith is in human authorities, the authorities of your society. Human beings, no matter how authoritative they seem, do not deserve our blind unquestioning faith.
.
LouiseM said,
January 7, 2013 at 9:32 pm
As with the “nerds” post, a clearer definition of the terms used to posit the theory being advanced (… magic is religion and religion is magic. )would be helpful. I also have difficulty sorting through the sweeping “all” statements included in this post (and the other) to find the main point.
If my children and I qualify as “modern Americans”, the opening statement, “All modern Americans are taught not to believe in magic” is untrue. Using the 2nd and 3rd definition of magic in the online Merriam Webster: 2.a: an extraordinary power or influence seemingly from a supernatural source, 3: the art of producing illusions by sleight of hand; all three of us were taught to believe in the extraordinary power/influence as well as the art described.
While I appreciate the opportunity this post presents to learn more about the term “magic”, consider how it is used in our current Western culture,and determine how it may or may not apply to religion, I don’t appreciate the overgeneralizing presented, nor the mind-reading portrayed in the you-statement: You can’t see the underlying similarities. Just looking at the surface. I don’t see either approach as healthy or helpful.
I hold with Human beings, no matter how authoritative they seem, do not deserve our blind unquestioning faith.
At this point, I question your authority in this discussion, realpc290, to speak for “all”, tell someone else here what they see, don’t see,or need, and make authoritative declarations about what another person has or hasn’t been taught.
I like the opportunity to think and talk about magic, supernatural power, reality, illusion, and faith. I also understand how provocation can sometimes further discussion, as the poking I considered unclean yielded a poetic but clear response. What I don’t understand, is how anyone who’s read here for more than a few months could possibly consider “karen” to be someone who can’t see underlying similarities and just looks at the surface!
For some, “magic” is defined as the “real or simulated manipulation of the paranormal”, with paranormal defined as beyond the range of normal experience or scientific explanation”
Is that is the type of magic being referred to in the “magic is religion and religion is magic” equation?
karen said,
January 7, 2013 at 9:50 pm
I do not feel(my faith is) superior to any other religions, and i doubt that any other religion would label their beliefs a ~magic~, either. No, not even Shamans or Imams or Buddistists(s):0).
Mystery is not magic– and i will be stubborn on this. If someone wants to call my beliefs magic, so be it. If i can see why they would call it that- so be it. I do not call it magic. Mystery is the closest i can get.
I suppose i would draw the line in eating other humans, though. The magic/mystery of that- is just gross.
My MinL goes to a psychic. She was assured there was to be another baby in the family(as told by her paid-cross my palms w/silver-psychic). That’s not to say i don’t believe in prophesy- per say(sp?)se… i don’t think it should be capitalized on in the marketplace, though.
All human beings are fallible.
Repeat.
All human beings are fallible.
Even the Pope(gasp!) is a sinful human being- he would be the 1st to admit that. Following him doesn’t mean he isn’t capable of making mistakes, but he’s given graces to hopefully counter the temptation of sin and the corruption of this world. Holy- not magic.
I have been taught that most magic is deception- look over there while i do this over here. That is magic. Say these voodoo words and some bad shit will happen. Magic. Praying ritualistically over bread and wine to become the Body and Blood of Christ? Pure mystery. Incapable of explanation. God’s grace.
We see the same things, real- i just refuse to call it by a word you have insisted i use. Like looking at a painting that is absolutely breath-taking and not agreeing on exactly why.
It’s just magical.
karen said,
January 7, 2013 at 9:59 pm
It’s ok- i don’t prod easily:0).
LouiseM said,
January 7, 2013 at 10:12 pm
LOL, I like “prod”, especially coming from someone experienced with cows. I also appreciate the addition of “mystery” to the discussion. Magic appears to me to involve manipulation for effect, which is different than an awareness of or belief in something more, beyond or outside of consciousness or reason.
realpc920 said,
January 8, 2013 at 7:35 pm
In this case, karen was only looking at the surface.
The meaning of the word “magic” has changed to mean something fake. I explained in the post that I did not mean that.
Shamans practice magic — that means they are able to perceive and influence the spirit worlds.
When we pray and meditate we are trying to perceive the spirit worlds, and we are trying to influence gods, spirits, whatevers, to guide and help us.
We don’t learn anything about “primitive” societies or religions in our public schools, and most of us don’t learn it in college either. I happened to have been interested in anthropology. I think people who study cultural anthropology get a very different perspective on society and religion.
I have noticed that most people do not study anthropology, or shamanism, at least not mainstream people. In other words, the great majority of Americans do not. They have no perspective outside of their own culture.
When I generalize and say “all Americans” I mean almost every American I have known in my life. And many others I don’t know, but read their books or blogs. If you ask every American you know, chances are you will not find any who know anything about primitive religion or shamanism.
And before the internet, I couldn’t find much information on shamanism, just a couple of books.
One I remember is “The Way of the Shaman” by Michael Harner. If you read that, I think you will be convinced that shamanism is magic and shamanism is religion, and all are closely related.
LouiseM said,
January 9, 2013 at 4:12 am
In this case, karen was only looking at the surface.
These are the questions that came of for me when I read this: How would you know this to be true? and Only looking at the surface of what?
Realpc920, I don’t believe it is possible for anyone on this electronic forum to know with enough certainty to use the word “only”, what someone else is looking at, surface or otherwise, at any given time. While I can believe that it may have seemed or appeared to you as if Karen was only looking at the surface, your wording implies a certainty that goes beyond observation.
The meaning of the word “magic” has changed to mean something fake. I explained in the post that I did not mean that.
I’m not seeing a clear explanation or definition of magic in your post or follow up comments. A semi-explanation, maybe, with “magic is religion”, followed by “What magic mostly involves, as far as I know, is trying to influence the world with words — magic spells and incantations”. As far as the word “magic” changing to mean something fake, the four different sources I’ve used to look up the definition (including the big paper one) list 3-4 different meanings with the practice of illusory tricks to entertain other people; conjuring placed closer to the bottom than the top.
What definition are you using? From your most recent comment it looks as if you consider magic to be the ability to “to perceive and influence the spirit worlds.” Is that so?
I appreciate the topic and would like to understand your main point, but am having difficulty doing so. When I encounter statements that seem closed or off, I feel frustrated. A comment like this boggles me: “If you ask every American you know, chances are you will not find any who know anything about primitive religion or shamanism.” What are you trying to convey?
For the last 3500 years, the ancient story of Moses and the “wise men, sorcerers, and Egyptian magicians” has been passed down through generations, read in synagogues and churches to thousands, told to children in parochial schools, shared in Sunday Schools, included in Bible story books, and used by Disney in one of their recent films. The story recorded in the Book of Exodus goes like this: ‘So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and did just as the Lord commanded. Aaron threw his staff down in front of Pharaoh and his officials and it became a snake. Pharaoh then summoned the wise men, and sorcerers, and the Egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts. Each one threw down his staff and it became a snake. But Aaron’s staff swallowed up their staffs. Yet Pharaoh’s heart became hard and he would not listen to them, just as the Lord had said.
What the ancient text described was a Power beyond human comprehension or understanding. A higher Power. An Ordered Energy that outdid and swallowed up the best of what the wisest humans at that time could offer in terms of manipulative skills and spiritual/supernatural awareness. What was revealed was more than they could understand, summon up, quantify or make use of themselves at that point in history. That story conveys an awareness of something beyond “magic” taking place, something approaching mystery as “One that is not fully understood or that baffles or eludes the understanding.
I daily encounter reasonable, rational people (Americans no less!) who believe in, are aware of, utilize, or connect with something/someone outside of ordinary conscious awareness, which they experience as Higher Power, Energy, Love, and Light. Some who do are connected to a religious tradition and hold a religious set of beliefs that offers a foundation for what they experience, others have only personal awareness of something they, like the Egyptian magicians and Pharaoh “saw” or experienced that is inexplicable, yet seems real and beyond imagination.
realpc920 said,
January 9, 2013 at 8:05 pm
LouiseM,
If you ask Americans whether they believe in magic, they will say “no.” Even though Moses and Jesus, for example, were magicians. Even karen, who believes in the bible, does not believe in magic.
So I am trying to understand why.
Our mainstream religions and our mainstream science are opposed to each other, but both are opposed to magic.
We are all taught as children that magic is not real. Children still read fairy tales, but now they are told fairies don’t really exist.
I don’t know when it started.
I know people who believe in traditional religions, others who are athiests or don’t care, and others who believe in higher powers, guiding spirits, etc.
There are some Americans now who are wiccans or neo-pagans, and supposedly practice the ancient religions. Probably at least some of them believe in magic.
There are new-agers (which I was and in some ways still am) who believe that our thoughts can actually influence the real world.
But I was talking about the majority and the mainstream.
The word “magic” is still used a lot, but always in the sense of things that are impossible and unreal.
I think that, in pre-modern cultures, magic was probably considered a natural and normal part of life.
LouiseM said,
January 10, 2013 at 1:06 am
So I am trying to understand why.
This whole discussion boils down to which definition of magic you are using.
Would the Americans whom you think would say “No” to the question of whether they believe in “magic” be on the same page as you when it came to which definition they used to form their answer?
It sounds to me as if you have one definition in mind (which hasn’t yet been clearly stated) while declaring that others who do not appear to hold the same opinion as you, believe something different, which is really under the surface the same as what you believe (if only they knew better or were more honest or deeper thinkers) yet is somehow still not in sync with your thinking because the majority and mainstream have a different sense of the word.
I quite honestly do not know where you are going and find your approach confusing. It seems circular to me.
I’d be interested in hearing your definition of magic, and would also like to know what you mean when you say Moses and Jesus were magicians. What type of magic do you think they practiced? How and where did they received their knowledge, skills, or power?
karen said,
January 10, 2013 at 12:22 pm
How about Yoga?
Schools are now incorporating Yoga into their PE classes. Althouse had an interesting post on whether it is considered exercise or- a religion. If it is a religion- whom does it worship and there are intonations or phrases recited… is that prayer?
I ask because our girls go to a Catholic school and they are including stretches and poses form yoga. A friend told me that it is an evil art- it’s devil worship and i thought- bull. Then, i googled ~Yoga prays to what god~… and got youtube videos of how these incantations are spells and that even though it feels good and seems harmless– exercise– it is dealing w/some kind of satanic worship. Something about “awakening the coiled snake dormant at the base of our spine” or some such- shit? I happen to believe that if we empty ourselves to become more open, and are not careful, we may end up being filled w/things that are not in our best interest. Could be that’s why my mind closes to any other ~older~ definition of magic.
So, now i feel led by the Spirit- so to speak- to address this issue w/the principal and not point fingers, or criticize, but to make these videos aware to him so that this can be address.
Maybe Pilates would be a better choice– i have to google that one now.
realpc920 said,
January 10, 2013 at 7:52 pm
karen,
Yoga is religion, and it’s magic. So is Christianity.
I agree with you that it could be dangerous to open ourselves to anything and everything. But you also should be skeptical about the warnings from the bible and the church.
The Romans had converted to Christianity (the emperor thought it would help him win wars, or something like that). So when Rome conquered most of Europe, they forced all the people to abandon their old religions and convert to Christianity.
The old religions were probably similar to the religions that were practiced by primitive tribes — magic, shamanism, witchcraft — all the usual ways of trying to heal sickness and bring good fortune to the tribe.
Christians portrayed the old religions — which we now call “paganism” as evil. The word “witchcraft” began to mean Satan worship.
If you buy all that old propaganda from the Catholic church, I think you are being very unfair to the ancient religions, and to people who practice non-Christian religions today.
It’s real easy to say “Everyone who believes something different from what I believe is evil.” That is a natural way to think, but it is not accurate or reasonable.
Yoga is just as valid a religion as Christianity. In fact, there are a lot of similarities.
And there are ideas and practices in Yoga that are completely missing from Christianity.
Yoga is amazing for physical as well as spiritual health. If you start complaining about it to the principal he might just think you are narrow-minded and uninformed. Even worse, he might agree with you and deprive the kids of a chance to learn something wonderful.
LouiseM said,
January 11, 2013 at 2:35 am
Yoga is religion, and it’s magic. So is Christianity.
I’m still interested in how you define of magic, realpc920.
Are you willing to present your definition?
If you continue on in this vein, making declarations without a clear presentation of terms, it’s possible someone could mistake you as obstinate and blindly contentious rather than curious and interested in a good-faith discussion.
Worse yet, they might wonder if your vagueness was a deliberate response of deception, depriving those who read it of a chance to learn something wonderful.
Aside from not knowing which definition you’re using for “magic”, I’ve not yet reached the point of full blown deprivation, since the statement “The Romans had converted to Christianity (the emperor thought it would help him win wars, or something like that)” provided a wonderful chance to learn more about Constantine and his motives, which led to another wonderful opportunity to check out Ruben’s painting of Constantine’s Conversion which shows a group of men looking up at something wonderfully brilliant, which according to the story, appeared as if by magic in the sky above their heads.
karen said,
January 11, 2013 at 9:39 am
“… which shows a group of men looking up at something wonderfully brilliant, which according to the story, appeared as if by magic in the sky above their heads.”
~As if by… ~. Gotta love it.
I don’t think yoga may be harmful because it’s different than what i believe in, i think it may be harmful due to the need to awaken the latent serpent coiled at the base of one’s spine. I always amired yoga- the dedication, the drive, the spirituality. Until i did a little research and listened to how it seems opposite what my faith teaches. One cannot serve two masters- or, at least i can’t.
~Mark Driscoll on Yoga~
~From Occult Yoga to Jesus Christ- my Strong testimony~
Two videos i viewed to better understand the concept beyond the beautiful positions and stretches. Each body formation is a prayer. I pray to our Lord, to His son and to His mother.
Who does Yoga pray to?
realpc920 said,
January 11, 2013 at 1:10 pm
karen,
I practice yoga and I pray to God.
realpc920 said,
January 11, 2013 at 1:16 pm
LouiseM
If you are expecting me to write a long book, with complete references, every time I write a blog post here, then I have to disappoint you.
For example, I mentioned the Roman converstion to Christianity in passing and you — bizarrely — complain that I didn’t go off on a long tangent about Constantine and paintings of him.
I am trying to make a point and obviously it is something you don’t like. So you nitpick and complain about incomplete references and lack of long detailed definitions.
I am not your grad student. I am trying to share some ideas which I consider important. If you don’t consider them important, or you find them aggravating, then you are free to miss the chance to understand them.
realpc920 said,
January 11, 2013 at 1:18 pm
Yes, karen, the kundilini energy of yoga is described as a serpent. So, because the serpent was a villain in your bible’s creation myth, you conclude that it must be the same serpent.
Mainstream American medicine knows nothing about this kind of energy, or any kind of Life Energy. It is studied in alternative medicine and science, though. But I have a suspicion you have not been interested in any of that.
karen said,
January 11, 2013 at 3:14 pm
“karen,
I practice yoga and I pray to God.”
Then you are praying to two gods, real. Or, more.
I don’t/won’t do that. No matter how beautiful yoga may look or feel.
I believe the serpent has, throughout history- been the symbol of powerful evil. Not just in ~my Bible’s creation myth~. It’s kind of ironic- you can call the Bible’s story of creation a myth- but, i can’t call the latent serpent evil.
Found this:
“The Serpent, Snake, and Dragon:
The Biblical account about the fall of mankind recorded in Genesis 3 introduces a creature called “the serpent”. The Hebrew word rendered “serpent” in Gen. 3:1 is nachash (Strong’s Number 5175), and means a serpent or a snake (see The Complete Word Study Dictionary by Warren Baker and Eugene Carpenter pg 1798). With different vowel points the word would be (Strong’s number 5172) the Hebrew verb which means to practice divination or sorcery. Yet another set of vowel pints yields the Hebrew word for brass or copper (Strong’s Number 5174). During the ninth and tenth centuries AD, the Masoretes, Jewish scholars in Tiberias, Galilee, perfected a system of points or nikkud for vowel notation and added it to the received consonantal text. The vowel points were added to ensure proper interpretation and reading of Hebrew Scripture, and are known as the Masoretic or Tiberian vowel points. This point system was added without altering the spacing of the text. Thus historically and grammatically nachash means serpent or snake.”
occult illuminati symbolism of the serpent throughout history…pt1
prophecyinthemaking.blogspot.com/…/occult-illuminati-symbolism-…
Mar 9, 2012 – Throughout human history, this is one thing that the devil has always … This is why ever since then, the serpent has always sought to do away …
LouiseM said,
January 11, 2013 at 5:21 pm
Compare and contrast:
1. a: I’d be interested in hearing your definition of magic
b. An expressed expectation that someone would write a long book with long detailed definitions and complete references every time they blog post
2. a …I appreciate the opportunity this post presents to learn more about the term “magic”, consider how it is used in our current Western culture,and determine how it may or may not apply to religion
b. An obvious dislike of the point someone is trying to make in a post.
3. a. …the statement “The Romans had converted to Christianity (the emperor thought it would help him win wars, or something like that)” provided a wonderful chance to learn more about Constantine and his motives…,
b. A bizarre complaint that someone didn’t go off on a long tangent about Constantine and paintings of him.
Bizarrely enough, realpc920, even though I consider your #31 comment to contain a twisted and deceptive presentation of what I see happening in these comments, I’m still honestly curious as to how you define “magic”.
As I said before, I like the topic and am interested in understanding what you are trying to convey. I don’t appreciate the use of deception and obfuscation, even though it may prompt discussion, it ultimately serves to block to understanding, learning, and relationship.
realpc920 said,
January 11, 2013 at 5:53 pm
karen,
I don’t feel an obligation to pray to God as described in texts written by one particular culture. And, as I said, that particular culture dominates American religion because one particular Roman emperor converted to Christianity (probably because, LouiseM, he felt that Christ had somehow led him to military victory — yeah, Jesus was definitely interested in leading Roman emperors to victory).
Some time after Rome converted to Christianity (or at least began to tolerate Christianity), it became the official religion of the Roman Empire. That meant every who was conquered by Rome was FORCED to convert from their ancient pagan religion to Christianity.
I think Christianty is fine, and I follow parts of it. But at least I try to see it for what it is — a feeble human attempt to comprehend something infinitely beyond our powers of comprehension.
It is easy for the human intellect to get carried away with itself. karen, why did you paste a whole explanation of Hebrew vowels? Like, what the heck could that have to do with yoga and serpents?
That is a good example of how limited our minds are. It is almost impossible for us not to go off on crazy tangents. It is impossible for us to think clearly. No one does. Not because we are stupid — because we are mortal limited creatures.
We are not gods, but we act and talk as if we were.
LouiseM said,
January 11, 2013 at 6:09 pm
we are mortal limited creatures…We are not gods…
By what sleight of hand did the magic disappear?
karen said,
January 11, 2013 at 7:46 pm
:0)- i guess i consider Hebrew to be ~ancient~, it probably isn’t- and i wanted to show that ~my Bible~ isn’t just important to me- it’s roots are beyond what i can grasp. Beyond AD– in2 BC.
I absolutely understand the limited creature that i am, i am just trying to expand- not narrow- my mind. There are convictions i hold and hold dearly(bitter clinger that i am) and i don’t graze for my Faith- i stay w/in the Pasture of Comfort and still water-heh. I could say- i grace, not graze.
It’s great that you can pick and choose the practices that enhance who you are and give you strength, real. That’s your choice. I find it noncommittal, but whatever makes a body feel- good. My choice also makes me feel good– but, i adhere to it… like a Religion, because it means more than my own self does. I think beyond to eternity, when my body fades to dust.
realpc920 said,
January 12, 2013 at 12:16 am
karen, do you really think you have to believe every word of some man-made religion to be religious? You really think only those who follow your particular beliefs will survive beyond this life?
The kind of faith you have is fragile because it can be damaged by logical and scientific arguments.
I am not non-commital. I am absolutely committed to God.
Anyway it’s stupid to have a who is more religious contest.
There is nothing wrong with having perspective and being aware of other cultures and religions.
Because I am very analytical I could not possibly accept any man-made religion without question. I have to look past the surface details of things.
realpc920 said,
January 12, 2013 at 12:53 am
LouiseM,
In the past I have wasted time having discussions with people who were strongly anti-alternative science. They pretended to be honestly interested, but it turned out they were searching with a microscope for any tiny imperfections in anything I said.
They were desperate to reassure themselves that their mainstream beliefs were holding up.
So that is what you seem like to me, If you had a genuine interest in alternative science, and its connections with ancient magic, then you would have asked more relevant questions.
I wasted enough time in the past by falling into that hole.
It really is interesting to me, and I think very important, that one of the discoverers of HIV does research on water memory. If you knew anything about the history of this subject, you would be interested too. But it seems that you don’t and you aren’t.
LouiseM said,
January 12, 2013 at 3:44 am
The title of this post is “Magic”. It contains one sentence referring to water memory, sixteen references to magic, and ends with a “Magic is Real” conclusion.
Relevant means: Having a bearing on or connection with the matter at hand.
The matter at hand is the prominent and frequent use of the word “magic” in different applications throughout the post and comments, with no definition or explanation offered to support the declarations and assumptions being made.
realpc920 said,
January 12, 2013 at 11:21 am
LouiseM,
I said what I meant by the word “magic” in the original post.
This is from wikipedia:
[Magical thinking in various forms is a cultural universal and an important aspect of religion. In many cases it becomes difficult or impossible to draw any meaningful line between beliefs and practices that are magical versus those that are religious, but in general the term religion is reserved for an organized cult with a priesthood and dedicated sites of worship or sacrifice, while magic is prevalent in all societies, regardless of whether they have organized religion or more general systems of animism or shamanism. Religion and magic became conceptually separated with the development of western monotheism, where the distinction arose between supernatural events sanctioned by mainstream religious doctrine (“miracles”) and mere magic rooted in folk belief or occult speculation. In pre-monotheistic religious traditions, there is no fundamental distinction between religious practice and magic; tutelary deities concerned with magic are sometimes called “hermetic deities” or “spirit guides.”]
LouiseM said,
January 12, 2013 at 4:20 pm
I said what I meant by the word “magic” in the original post.
I’m not finding a clear explanation of what you meant by the word “magic” in anything you’ve written to this point, realpc920.
The above quote from the wiki concerns magical thinking. Although it refers to magic, what is meant by the word is still left undefined.
A return to the wiki to look up the actual word, yields this: Magic is the art of producing a desired effect or result through the use of incantation, ceremony, ritual, the casting of spells or various other techniques that presumably assure human control of supernatural agencies or the forces of nature
Does that fit your definition?
realpc920 said,
January 12, 2013 at 5:29 pm
Are you absolutely sure your goal isn’t nitpicking LouiseM? Here, again, is part of the quote that I pasted:
“In pre-monotheistic religious traditions, there is no fundamental distinction between religious practice and magic”
It says “magical thinking” at the beginning, and then later it says “magic.”
Please think about what you are trying to accomplish. You are not trying to understand my post. You are on some kind of nitpicking crusade.
LouiseM said,
January 12, 2013 at 9:28 pm
My goal all along has been to understand what you are attempting to communicate, realpc290. In order to do so, I’ve asked you to provide your definition of the word “magic”, a word/term which appears central to the declarations and assumptions I see you publicly presenting here in post and comments.
I don’t appreciate your gross distortions of what I’ve said nor the patently false presumptions you’ve made about me, both of which you’ve presented in response while failing (refusing?) to honestly engage and offer up the definition needed to support your contentions and move forward in discussion.
The real question isn’t what I’m trying to accomplish, but what you are trying to convey. You’re the person who wrote the post and made the following statements:
…magic is religion and religion is magic.
…magic is real…
Magic is the essence of all religions…
If you don’t believe in magic, then you don’t believe in prayer.
You need to separate religion and magic…
…magic is the basis of all the modern religions.
Shamans practice magic…
Moses and Jesus, for example, were magicians.
…in pre-modern cultures, magic was probably considered a natural and normal part of life.
Yoga is religion, and it’s magic.
Yet the above contrasts with we are mortal limited creatures. We are not gods, but we act and talk as if we were.
Which brings this discussion back to, What is magic? What is a magician?
How do you define these terms to support the above assertions and provide the clarification needed to take them into consideration?
These questions go to the heart of the mystery and matter at hand. They are both relevant and pertinent to the topic raised and ideas expressed. To regard them a trivial form of “nitpicking” dismisses the relevancy of your post and demeans both of us.
realpc920 said,
January 13, 2013 at 6:57 am
I quoted a standard definition of magic in comment 41. I agree with that definition.
LouiseM said,
January 13, 2013 at 2:59 pm
Weaseling is a form of deception, realpc920. It does not lead to honest discussion.
There is no definition of magic in comment #41. Your use of “standard” is sleight of hand at its finest!
weaseling: To be evasive; equivocate
equivocate: to avoid speaking directly or honestly; hedge
sleight of hand: adroitness in deception
LouiseM said,
January 18, 2013 at 3:22 am
This morning, after ingesting natural medication in a compounded form, I sat down to read the thoughts of a Franciscan priest. Those thoughts arrived at my house in book form on Monday. They’d been delivered via Brown Truck after the coded request received by an amazonian sized non-human entity in October had been routed to an enormous storage facility miles away from me, where that book I’d ordered had finally been stocked for sale. It was then selected from a shelf and placed on a moving conveyor controlled by invisible energy and cryptic messages to land in a box which was electronically sized, and folded and shaped by machine for that specific order. The address label was printed and applied with a puff of forced air as the sealed and moving box traveled by conveyor to a crowded merge lane full of boxes, where an electronic eye scanning bar codes at the rate of 120 boxes per minute, read the address and sent a signal to the mechanical “shoes” on the shipping lane telling them exactly where and when the box needed to be kicked off the lane and diverted to the appropriate truck trailer loader so it could begin its journey to an airport where it would be flown to Brown Truck regional headquarters, repeat the sorting process and eventually find it’s way to me in order to allow my eyes and brain an opportunity to take in another human’s thoughts.
At 1 pm, I loaded myself into my personal transport machine and made use of one form of energy to travel 10 miles in 20 minutes time in order to receive an acupuncture treatment from a person skilled in working with and moving around another form of energy. That person, who’d grown up in Russia and worked there as an acupuncturist for the USSR Olympic team, had decided to move to the US sixteen years ago to begin a new life and practice at a clinic in my area where Western and Eastern approaches to healing and treatment were honored and offered. After partaking of his expertise and experiencing physical relief along with a notable reduction in swelling, I returned home to “call up” my husband using directed but invisible waves of energy to communicate with him where he stood in a different country and time zone, 1,800 miles away from where I was sitting. Following that, I commanded the release of sounds held captive on a reflective silvery disc, and proceeded to gather up free floating information on Robert Monroe and Itzhak Bentov, two men whose names were mentioned yesterday at the electronic forum, Althouse, in an electronically held conversation about death and the afterlife. Since the thoughts of Robert Monroe, contained in his book Far Journeys (printed 28 years ago, prior to his death), immediately materialized and appeared as words before my very eyes in response to a four word prompt from me, I did not need to engage in the process of summoning up a more physical book from afar (see above) in order to access descriptions of Monroe’s experiences with Out Of Body travel.
All in all it was a day filled with amazing experiences and awareness, some of which might be regarded as “magic” or ” magical” by others, depending on definition, all of which could be be considered “mysterious”, especially by someone lacking the present day knowledge, awareness or insight needed to understand and accept them as a “real” part of 21st century life. Just who was functioning in the role of magician or shaman in this story (the pill maker? the priest? the acupuncturist?, the code writers? the electricians? the musicians? the CD burner? the Out of Body traveler? or me-LouiseM?) remains a mystery.
Mystery: Something that is difficult or impossible to understand or explain
realpc920 said,
January 18, 2013 at 12:41 pm
I can’t tell if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me LouiseM.
Alternative scientists use the scientific method to study things like energy medicine, ESP, life after death, homeopathy, etc. Some of these are mentioned in your comment.
Mainstream materialist science claims that all these things are “magic,” and therefore impossible.
Montagnier — co-discoverer of HIV — has been studying the memory of water, which is the basis of homeopathy. He is free to study whatever he wants because he is past retirement age. But most scientists are forced to conform to the mainstream, or else be deprived of funding.
Mainstream science is now dominated by materialism, which is an illogical philosophy.
Well it is possible you agree with my original post but didn’t understand what I was saying.
karen said,
January 22, 2013 at 9:02 pm
“Mainstream science is now dominated by materialism, which is an illogical philosophy.”
What is, exactly: ~illogical philosophy~?
Louise= banging one’s head against the keyboard like that- it could do serious damage to both said head and board…
I heard it- magically- from here:0).
realpc920 said,
January 23, 2013 at 1:28 pm
I really don’t know what is making you so frustrated karen. I don’t think it’s my fault that you don’t know what “materialism” is, or what “illogical” means.
karen said,
January 23, 2013 at 7:14 pm
I just didn’t realize philosophy could be termed that way.
I thought you could agree- or disagree, but 2 label it as such goes against the grain of the what philosophy stands for.
Philosophy is free thinking-not w/out criticism- just never labeled illogical.
MhOpinion, of course.
realpc920 said,
January 23, 2013 at 7:55 pm
What you just said does not make sense. I said that “materialism” is illogical. It is a philosophy.
Who said that a philosophy can’t be considered illogical?
I actually have no idea what your criticism is. You didn’t ask WHY I think materialism is illogical. Just that I shouldn’t think that.
Anyway, I really can’t tell what you and LouiseM have been criticizing about my post.
LouiseM said,
January 23, 2013 at 8:50 pm
Question asked: What is, exactly: ~illogical philosophy~?
Preceded by: What is magic? What is a magician?
and, The real question… what you are trying to convey?
Followed by: How do you define these terms to support the above assertions and provide the clarification needed to take them into consideration?
Result: No clear answers provided.
Mystery prevails.
karen said,
January 23, 2013 at 10:11 pm
My mistake- i’d just never heard of materialism philosophy.
I always figured philosophy was an idea- an opinion.
Illogical is your opinion.
I’m going to bed.
No offense intended- enlighten up… geesh:0).
LouiseM said,
January 24, 2013 at 1:31 am
Flummoxed: baffled, confused, puzzled, stumped, foxed, at sea, bewildered, at a loss, mystified, stymied, bamboozled non-plussed.
In the “Color Me Flummoxed” category, filed under “Missing the Clue Bus”:
1. I really don’t know what is making you so frustrated karen.
I’m not seeing where frustration on karen’s part was expressed or indicated in the comments leading up to this.
2. I don’t think it’s my fault that you don’t know what “materialism” is, or what “illogical” means.
I’m also not seeing where any lack of knowledge regarding the meanings of the words “materialism” or “illogical” was expressed. How did fault come to be involved?
3. You didn’t ask WHY I think materialism is illogical. Just that I shouldn’t think that.
Since asking for definition of terms often precedes debate, I’m not sure how a failure to ask WHY is more of an issue than the failure to define terms. I’m also not locating any admonishment regarding who shouldn’t think what. Where is it?
The odd turning of truth in these responses brings to mind a form of psychological abuse knows as “Gaslighting”, where distortion and invalidation are used to promote a different reality than the one at hand. .
I’m truly flummoxed regarding your intent and motives here, realpc920. Is honesty in discussion and disagreement your goal?
realpc920 said,
January 24, 2013 at 1:05 pm
karen,
You thought philosophers just make things up without giving any reasons?
If that were true, being a philosopher would be a very easy job.
realpc920 said,
January 24, 2013 at 1:08 pm
Sorry you are feeling so flummoxed and abused LouiseM. I had no idea I could abuse and flummox someone just by writing some of my ideas in a blog post!
LouiseM said,
January 24, 2013 at 2:11 pm
Read what I said again, realpc920. Being reminded of an abusive behavior and being abused are two different experiences.
Another twist on your part.
karen said,
January 24, 2013 at 8:21 pm
I don’t know much about philosophy- but considered materialism to be a term not connected w/philosophy. Materialism- i thought- was a need for things and an improper or over-rated emphasis ON said objects. Gotta have gotta have- things.
Philosophy seems a different category of thought.
“Mainstream science is now dominated by materialism, which is an illogical philosophy.”
“Question asked: What is, exactly: ~illogical philosophy~?”
&
“Mainstream materialist science claims that all these things are “magic,” and therefore impossible.”
I will say, in my experience as an organic dairy farmer- that mainstream salesmen or veterinarians do not view things such as homeopathy or kelp or other ~natural~ aides of immunity as ~magic~… they view it as absolute bullshit w/no scientific merit- and therefore a waste of time and $$$$- not to mention totally ~illogical~. In my experience- again- they are wrong.
NOW i’m frustrated.
realpc920 said,
January 25, 2013 at 11:52 am
karen, you admit you don’t know much about philosophy — so you should be frustrated with yourself, not with me.
You don’t even need a public library card to find out what “materialist philosophy” means, you could just search in googe. If you want to be ignorant, don’t blame me.
What is “illogical philosophy?” A philosophy that doesn’t make sense logically. What else could that mean?
If the mainstream salesmen and veterinarians you know think homeopathy is bullshit, does that mean it must be bullshit? Are they infallible authorities who know the truth about everything?
Homeopathy is not accepted by mainstream science and medicine, yet lots of people and doctors think it works. And as I said Montagnier (and others) found positive results in research on water memory.
If you are frustrated, that really has nothing to do with my post. You want to feel certain that homeopathy, and other non-mainstream beliefs, cannot possibly have any value. But you don’t have the knowledge to decide for yourself.
And you don’t want to make the required effort to get the knowledge.
And you are unaware that your religious beliefs are completely at odds with materialist philosophy. If you enjoy the bliss of ignorance, then remain ignorant, that is your choice.
karen said,
January 25, 2013 at 2:43 pm
lol.
LouiseM said,
January 25, 2013 at 4:44 pm
It’s almost magical the way some posts overlap. Part of the mystery of greater consciousness perhaps, as fluid as water, refreshing the fertile ground of memory, invigorating the growth of new thoughts and connections!
Who knows what ignorance and foolishness lurks in the hearts of Men???
The Shadow knows!
The seed elements present:
Serialized drama
A character depicted as a stupidity fighting vigilante with the powers to see and know beyond a shadow of a doubt what others KNOW, in addition to what they are thinking and feeling. A spymaster of the first order!
-Posed in life as a serious, logical and real person about town.
-Gifted with the ability to cloud the minds of less logical men and women.
-Faced “a wide variety of enemies, ranging from kingpins and mad scientists to international spies and “super-villains”.
The Shadow was given psychic powers, including the radio character’s ability “to cloud men’s minds” so that he effectively became invisible, and was more of a spymaster than crime fighter…The character and look of The Shadow gradually evolved over his lengthy fictional existence.
For some, the opportunity to experience this evolution first hand was considered dramatic entertainment, for others it provided comic relief, and for the few with the Magic Finger and Imagination to see beyond to more, the mystery of water to seed was realized:
When Bob Kane and Bill Finger first conceived of the “Bat-Man”, Finger suggested they pattern the character after pulp mystery men such as the Shadow. Finger then used “Partners of Peril”—a Shadow pulp written by Theodore Tinsley—as the basis for Batman’s debut story, “The Case of the Chemical Syndicate. Finger later publicly acknowledged that “my first Batman script was a take-off on a Shadow story”. Additionally, characters such as Batman, Green Arrow and the Green Hornet resemble Lamont Cranston’s alter ego (the real life alias/identity of the Shadow), depicted as wealthy, young men about town.
Life,Blogs and Humans: Stranger, more Magical, more Mysterious than fiction!
karen said,
January 25, 2013 at 6:31 pm
Are you saying The Shadow is real??????????
:0?
LouiseM said,
January 25, 2013 at 9:53 pm
From my perspective, this has been a thread filled with mystery and intrigue (as in: to arouse the curiosity or interest of; fascinate). Reading the wiki about The Shadow story and realizing how one idea led to another, captivated my imagination and sparked hope. Batman rising from The Shadow!
As for your question regarding the reality of The Shadow, karen, I’d need more definition of “real” and “shadow” before offering up my answer as there’s several different directions this could go.
I particularly like the conclusions of this one:
In Jungian psychology, the shadow or “shadow aspect” may refer to
(1) the entirety of the unconscious, i.e., everything of which a person is not fully conscious, or
(2) an unconscious aspect of the personality which the conscious ego does not recognize in itself. Because one tends to reject or remain ignorant of the least desirable aspects of one’s personality, the shadow is largely negative. <b. According to Jung, the shadow, in being instinctive and irrational, is prone to projection.
I also have this to say regarding frustration. Frustration and sarcasm are both experiences which link back to anger. One is a mild experience of anger, the other a hidden expression of anger.
For a long time, I was adrift and “at sea” when it came to anger being grounded in the awareness that anger is a natural response to “incongruity”. When the brain takes in two pieces of information that don’t match, when tone and words don’t fit, when what is seen and what is said don’t go together, when whatever is being smelled, heard, seen, tasted, felt or sensed, doesn’t match previous experience, a red flag goes up, and the anger warning light on the dashboard starts blinking, “ALERT, ALERT ALERT” in order to prompt the brain to begin sorting through the confusion and take whatever steps are necessity to survive, Meanwhile, adrenaline is held on standby, ready to dump in for a Fight, Flight or Freeze response as the next option. When someone says they love you and then spits on your shoe–the red light starts flashing. Same with a cow who eats hats–funny after the brief flash of frustration has cleared and the act can be regarded as benign or part of an ongoing pattern/exchange.
I’ve been puzzled by realpc and realpc920’s posts and comments here for while because I pick up a mixed message from them that is difficult for me to sort. “Take me serious, I have something important to say which I’d like you to read and consider, ” is one message, with a cross message of “I can’t be bothered to read what you say or engage in honest conversation or respectful disagreement with you because I’m enlightened and logical and you’re not”. When I encounter this incongruity, I experience frustration. When attempts at engagement and humor are rebuffed, ignored or spun into distorted conclusions resembling lies, my response edges toward sarcasm which has a hurtful edge
It’s not my intent to hurt whatever is real about realpc920. I would like the projection, twisting, and false assumptions about what others know and feel, to stop. Maybe that’s not possible, but I’d be curious to find out how much more fun and interesting the discourse might be had if it were. Maybe it would go flat and boring, and lose the intensity that comes with deception and drama.
Whatever the case, I like thinking about magic, mystery and materialism and have had a good time with this thread, with realpc920 throwing out enough grist and magic beans to prompt me to enter into deeper considerations of Bread and Magic Kingdoms.
For that, I say thank you! And to Karen the Rogue (One who is playfully mischievous; a scamp.) I say, Eat my Hat!!
karen said,
January 25, 2013 at 10:38 pm
:0) when i asked if The Shadow was real- i meant it as- the host of this post. My tongue was fully implanted in my cheek- although i appreciate the psychology aspect of this conversation. That’s a magic can of worms all on it’s own, i’d say. My oldest daughter is majoring in psyh.
… as for BB& our hat trick(i played soccer in HS/College)- it’s mostly myself that i’m frustrated w/because i bend down to put the milker on her- and i forget that(nearly every time) she steals my hat, possibly thinking it is all my idea for her to take the bait. Which means i have no memory for annoying, hurtful things- i never stay mad. I consider this a gift from God- a grace He’s given me to allow me to move onward in this confusing world. For which i am grateful.
As for projection- i’ve experienced enough of that in the past 3+ yrs(w/my FinL) and as good as i am at humoring/defusing situations- i’ve failed here. My responses are twisted to be attacks against things imagined said or believed.
@ least i didn’t say ~WhateveRRR~ this time.
ps- btw, Louise- what color is your Hat? If you ever visited us, i could have BB give it a taste- if you can allow for the cow slobber!
LouiseM said,
January 26, 2013 at 12:54 am
I don’t have a hat, karen, but if I were to order one up, I’d go for a Magic Hat–a stretchy one with feathers maybe, something that would change color and shape as needed as my command. My crowning glory currently is my hair, which is fast becoming white. At one time it was a lovely blond, but the boys borrowed some of the color when they were hatching, and fleeing hormones have slowly been taking the rest. If I were to visit BB, I would borrow a hat for the occasion in order to experience the joy and awe of feeling her steal it. I’d also allow for cow slobber and steamy breath if BB wanted to give my hair a lick. Her saliva has to be at least as potent as the expensive “product” the beautician talks me into for encouraging and maintaining curl control.
‘Tis a gift not to stay mad. One of my sons has this gift, and he’s a joy to be around. Steady as a rock with an ability to view life from different angles. He too is a rogue and he makes me laugh. Me, I grew up in a distorted and gas-lit world of falsehoods, projections, addictions, accusations and hidden anger. The definitions for flummox define the way I used to live and account for my interest in puzzles. I’ve been trying to figure out and find what is “Real” from early on. Even the way religion was presented was distorted and I’ve left all but the core of that behind for the time being, in order to reassemble the pieces in a way that works, makes sense and accounts for Love and Mystery.
Yesterday, the words following the “Love is patient, Love is kind…” scripture came unexpectedly to mind while I was journaling. I remembered them as “now we see in part”…but looking them up revealed this truth, which I apply to Mystery, Magic and Materialism:
“For we know in part…we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror…Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.”
This is my frustration as well as my hope.
As for tongue in cheek Shadow awareness, neither your tongue nor your cheek are easy to miss! Both are appreciated.